PFP’s Michael Brown on Hannity & Colmes
08 May 2002
PFP’s Michael Brown on Hannity & Colmes
A DEBATE WITH REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R-AZ)
HANNITY: …But, first, how should Israel respond to the very latest suicide bombing that killed 15 and wounded 60. Last night, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon hinted that Israel did not plan to let the latest attack go unanswered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIEL SHARON, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: He who rises up to kill us — we will preempt it and kill him first. We have proven there is no and there never will be any shelter for terrorists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Is that the right answer? Joining us tonight is Arizona Congressman J.D. Hayworth. Michael Brown is with us, a Washington, D.C., correspondent for “Middle East International” and a program director for Partners for Peace. Michael, let’s say you’re the prime minister of Israel. Let’s say your citizens are the victims of these homicide attacks. Wouldn’t you retaliate?
MICHAEL BROWN, PARTNERS FOR PEACE: The thing that Israel needs to do is make a very hard decision and recognize that they have occupied and dominated another people for 35 years, and the violence will not stop as long as they continue to subjugate another…
HANNITY: All right. Here’s my question, though. What would you do…
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: … that’s difficult at this time, but they need to do it.
HANNITY: Wait a minute. You’re giving me rationale. You’re — all you’re doing by saying, “Occupation is the reason that justifies”…
BROWN: No, I’m giving you facts. I’m giving you facts.
HANNITY: You’re giving me, “Occupation is the reason for homicide murderers.” That’s what you’re telling us. I’m asking what you would do if you had a country and you’re the prime minister. Here’s another attack, 16 dead, 60 injured. What would you do?
BROWN: I would comply with international law. The occupation is illegal. And I would simply do that, comply with international law. Sean, it’s very easy.
HANNITY: Occupation — occupation…
BROWN: That’s all they need to do.
HANNITY: Who has the West Bank…
BROWN: It’s a military occupation…
HANNITY: Where was this Palestinian state?
BROWN: … and the Palestinians are being relegated…
HANNITY: Mr. Brown, there was no…
BROWN: The Palestinian state is going to be…
HANNITY: … Palestinian state. The West Bank was Jordan’s.
BROWN: Sean, will you let me get a word in edgewise, or are you just going to talk the whole time? Let me explain this. The Palestinians want 22 percent of historic Palestine. Ariel Sharon, many people think, wants to transfer Palestinians into Jordan and have that become the state. The Palestinians are simply saying, “Out of all that land that was once ours,” that they were thrown out, that you can talk to Palestinians…
HANNITY: Talk to — no, talk to Jordan. They were thrown out of Jordan, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: They’re desperately…
HANNITY: They’ve never had a state. Ever! If you look — West Bank was Jordan’s. Gaza was Egypt’s.
BROWN: Are you denying — Sean, are you denying that Palestinians have lived on that ground for generations?
HANNITY: I’m saying there was no state.
BROWN: Palestinians…
COLMES: Let me get J.D. in here.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: … living there for hundreds and hundreds of years.
COLMES: Michael, good to see you. Let me get J.D. in here for a second.
HANNITY: So were Jews.
COLMES: Good to see you, both. J.D., Ariel Sharon is saying he doesn’t want to negotiate with Yasser Arafat. You can’t pick your peace partner necessarily. It’s not up to Ariel Sharon to decide who is on the other side of a negotiation. That contravenes what President Bush has said, what the position of the United States is. When — doesn’t he have to realize that he can’t choose who the leader of the Palestinian people are?
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA: Well, let’s take a look at the realistic situation involving Yasser Arafat, instead of the, quite frankly, delusional assessment we just got a couple of seconds ago from Michael. The fact is this: If Arafat cannot control the bombers, then he is ineffective. If he has, in fact, directed the bombers, then he is a terrorist. Ergo, no one should be negotiating with him. Indeed, wasn’t it our own commander in chief in the wake of the attack on the United States who said terror in all its forms must be challenged and overcome?
COLMES: Congressman, you — you sidestepped my question. The issue was whether or not…
HAYWORTH: No, I didn’t, sir. I answered…
COLMES: … Ariel Sharon has the right to determine who his
negotiating partner is. Let me put up on the screen what Yasser Arafat just said within the last 24 hours. He said, “I, as president of the Palestinian Authority, repeat my commitment to take part with the United States and the international community fight terrorism, to give my order to the security forces to confront and prevent all terrorist operations against Israeli civilians from any Palestinian group.” Now you can say you don’t believe him. What more do you want him to do? He’s made that statement. Do you want to just say, “Well, we’re just not going to believe anything the guy says?
HAYWORTH: Well, the fact is this: Israel is going to retaliate, and Israel has a legitimate right to self-defense. Michael spoke earlier about international law. Every nation has a legitimate right to self-defense. And the obscenity, the atrocity that we saw on television screens in America last night with repeated suicide bombings, and now the suicide bombings moving beyond Israel to Pakistan is something that no one in the free world can countenance. And there’s one other point that you need to remember about Mr. Arafat. As we heard from Dennis Ross, the former Clinton Middle East envoy, on this very network in an interview with Brit Hume, President Clinton and Ambassador Ross gave Yasser Arafat, with the acceptance
of Ehud Barak, 97 percent of what he wanted…
HANNITY: J.D., we’ve got to…
HAYWORTH: … and still he turned it down. What part of no don’t you…
HANNITY: We’ve got to take a break.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: … and that is the fact.
HANNITY: We’ve got to take a break. We’ll be back, Michael, on the other side. Hang on, guys. We’ve got to come back on the other side. And also coming up, is the privacy of the Catholic confessional now in danger? Could priests be forced to turn in people who confess to sexually abusing children? Should they morally and legally have to do that? And later, one Baltimore councilman is tired of hearing the N word, and he’s going to do something about it. You’ll meet him. That’s all coming up straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. Coming up, should priests be responsible for reporting sexual abuse they hear during a confession? And later, will banning the N word really stop people from saying it? That debate is straight ahead. And what fault could anyone find with my co-host and friend, Sean Hannity?
HANNITY: Nothing.
COLMES: I can’t think of anything. We’ll tell you what drives one viewer nuts later in the program. But, right now, we continue with Arizona Congressman J.D. Hayworth and Michael Brown. Michael, you know, every time that there is one of — there are these suicide bombers and there’s more violence and it’s — tragically, it happened again while Ariel Sharon was in the United States, and they, unfortunately, will use that as an excuse not to negotiate. But, as we go forward with peace, we’re unfortunately going to see more of this, aren’t we, from the extremists who don’t want any peace?
BROWN: Well, the congressman said it’s an obscenity, and I certainly agree with that. I hope the congressman will also recognize that it’s an obscenity that Palestinians have not been able to live free for decades now and that Palestinian children are being killed left and right. Over 400 Palestinian children, 1,700 Palestinians have been killed. Four hundred and fifty Israelis have been killed. It’s far, far too much. It needs to stop. But it will not stop as long as Ariel Sharon is there saying, “The talk of a Palestinian state is premature.” I’m from North Carolina. I won’t hold it against the congressman that he went to NC State. The fact of the matter here is that that premature state — if he’s talking about saying that — it reminds me of nothing so much as what we heard in the American South, that “Hold on for African- Americans. Hold on your day of freedom is in the future and will come one day.”
COLMES: All right, Congressman — Congressman, that’s just…
BROWN: That is precisely — precisely what is being said here.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: That is precisely what is being said here. Palestinians…
COLMES: All right. Hold on, Michael. Michael, hold on.
Congressman, go ahead.
HAYWORTH: The foreign policy — the filibuster is over. I think,
Michael, you certainly bring to mind the sad phrase “useful idiot” because there is no…
COLMES: We don’t have to call names, Congressman.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: … a 5-year-old — no, no. I’m not calling names. I’m not calling names. I’m…
BROWN: I didn’t come here to be subjected to your [ad hominem attacks]…
HAYWORTH: He’s accused me of being a — you accused me of being a racist, and I categorically reject that, and you ought to apologize…
BROWN: I did no such thing. I did no such thing.
HAYWORTH: Yes, you did. You went on a very jaundiced jag about racism. But let me give you the facts here. It is obscene to have a 5-year- old Israeli girl murdered in her crib. It is obscene to see these continued actions, and I will tell you this, my friend. It is…
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Michael, let him talk! Michael! Let him talk. You had your say.
HAYWORTH: I did not interrupt you, sir.
HANNITY: Go ahead, J.D.
HAYWORTH: I did not interrupt you, sir.
BROWN: You most certainly did, but please go ahead.
HANNITY: J.D., go ahead.
HAYWORTH: OK. This is fine. We see how things get jaundiced even in the matter of seconds with a reinterpretation of history. Let’s go back. Nineteen forty-seven. The U.N. mandate. A Palestinian state and a new Jewish state. The Palestinians and the Arabs categorically rejected it. All that my friend talks about now in terms of occupied territories took place in 1967, the reason why the drums of war were beating in terms of the Arab nations against the Jewish state. Whether it is 1948 or 1967 or 1973, actions were taken that resulted
in military consequences for the Arab nations and for the Palestinians. You know what’s obscene about the Palestinian camps? The fact that they’re breeding grounds for terrorism. You know what’s obscene…
HANNITY: Hey…
HAYWORTH: … about the madrassas and the schools? The fact that they continue to generate this type of hatred. And what is especially obscene is the type of outright appeasement certain misguided folks in this country and overseas, apologists for this type of action…
HANNITY: Hey, J.D.
HAYWORTH: … can only harbor and garner. It’s unfortunate.
HANNITY: J.D., let me ask you this question because I — you just heard Michael in the segment before — “Occupation is the cause. Occupation caused it. I tell Israel to stop occupying,” which, in my view, is a rationalization and a justification for terror. Let’s say Israel makes an agreement, ‘67 borders. That means Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Palestinian Authority, Arafat, all the terror goes away? Baloney. I don’t believe that. I don’t buy that. A terrorist should never be negotiated with. Period.
HAYWORTH: Until there is a recognition of Israel’s right to exist, until the textbooks of Palestinian schoolchildren accurately reflect the borders of Israel, and until there is actual action…
HANNITY: But then here’s…
HAYWORTH: … to renounce violence.
HANNITY: Wait a minute. But here’s the question.
HAYWORTH: Until we see that, we will never have it.
HANNITY: Sharon says Israel will win, and, when it achieves victory, it will mean peace. I agree with him.
BROWN: Sean, what is obscene here — what is obscene here is that I will come on this show and say it is obscene for Palestinians to kill civilians and it is equally obscene for Israelis to kill Palestinians and to dominate them. We will not hear from the congressmen that Palestinian lives are equally valuable and that Palestinian…
HANNITY: Of course they are. Well, he’s not saying…
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: He’s not said anything contrary to that.
HAYWORTH: Every — every human life is valuable.
HANNITY: Every human life is valuable.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: Hear me, Michael.
HANNITY: Hey, J.D., wait a minute. Wait a minute. There’s one
difference between…
HAYWORTH: Every human life is valuable. But every nation has a legitimate right to self-defense…
BROWN: This is absurd.
HAYWORTH: … and no one needs to delude themselves with appeasement in this unfortunate and tragic situation. And the fact is, as I pointed out earlier, as has been pointed out by former special Middle East envoy Dennis Ross, the Arabs — the Palestinians had 97 percent of what they wanted, and yet Arafat rejected the…
BROWN: That’s completely false.
COLMES: Hold on, guys. We only have a second left. There were checkpoints, there were all kinds of things in place that did not make it free. There was not free and open passage. Ninety-seven percent is a phony number. And Sharon is now refusing to negotiate with Arafat. There can’t be peace as long as…
HAYWORTH: Well, this is a first.
COLMES: … as Ariel Sharon continues his current position.
HAYWORTH: Alan, this is a first.
COLMES: We can’t move forward.
HAYWORTH: You’re telling us — wait. I want to get this straight. And, ladies and gentlemen, let’s understand clear, Alan Colmes tonight is calling the negotiation of the United States under Bill Clinton phony. Ninety-seven percent phony.
COLMES: I said that that…
HAYWORTH: Well, it wasn’t phony to…
COLMES: I said that that agreement…
HAYWORTH: … former President Clinton. It wasn’t phony to Dennis Ross.
COLMES: Congressman…
HAYWORTH: It was there, and it was rejected.
COLMES: Congressman, that…
HAYWORTH: That is a tragedy.
COLMES: That 97 percent is not the right number.
Michael, go ahead.
BROWN: Palestinians rejected that because they would have been squeezed into four bantustans, a Gaza bantustan and three in the West Bank that were completely noncontiguous. We would absolutely not accept that…
HAYWORTH: Let’s go with the real answer.
BROWN: … in South Africa. We did not accept it…
HAYWORTH: The real answer is…
BROWN: … in South Africa…
HAYWORTH: … sadly the Palestinians will not…
BROWN: Please don’t interrupt me, Congressman.
COLMES: Hold on, Congressman.
BROWN: Congressman, don’t interrupt me.
We didn’t accept it in South Africa with the bantustans there, and we absolutely…
COLMES: We’re out of…
BROWN: … will not accept it with the [Palestinians]…
COLMES: We have to go. We thank you, both. Congressman…
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: We’re just out of time.
HAYWORTH: The forces of terror never ceases to amaze me. That’s very enlightening, Michael.
COLMES: Thank you. Thank you, both…
